Logosauce idea/opinions?

[Mason Roberts]

Hey guys,

I wanted you to give me your thoughts on an idea I had for Logosauce's plans for a new site system. I'm not sure if this thread belongs here, but if not it can be moved!

Here is what I wrote on the blog:

Hey guys,

I already pitched this idea to Digger and he thinks that many of the ideas I put forward were valid, but I wanted to see what you guys thought… I think the system I will describe will solve MANY of your above
"I had an idea for your site, which I’d hope you would take on because I feel it would ensure only quality works/finals to be submitted! Right now, there is a mentality that this kind of logo work is an easy way to get cash… That is why you see so many logos that are unprofessional and not suited to the brief.

I feel the best way to counteract this attitude is to have a set of deliverables that are NEEDED, to be able to submit the final logo. For example, the following MUST be submitted before the final!
questions/problems with Logosauce already.

• Concept Development (possibly pencil sketches)
• Work in Progress/Refinements (WIP)
• Finals

I got this idea from Welcome to The Computer Graphics Society where they sometimes set up challenges similar to Logosauce, but rather for Digital Art. The results are always of high standard, because it attracts real professionals, or at least those who are willing to go through the process and not just submit some 15 minute worked piece.


The way they hold their competitions is also very smart. It is in a forum style, where every participant has their own thread where they can submit their milestones and people can comment/critique etc. For example: CGTalk - Steampunk; Myths and Legends - Image If Logosauce were to do this the number of comments/critiques would increase because it wouldn’t seem like such a BIG deal… It will also create a tighter community, which is always nice.
This process ENSURES quality, and it will filter out all those not willing to put in any sort of effort, and in my opinion that is what any designer wants. If you guys are really passionate about this, then I’d suspect you feel the same way as me and we can all band together to do something to help the situation.


I’d really hope to see this change in the future, because I know that a lot of quality designers are leaving your site because of the issues “Spec Work” stimulates.


Cheers guys

Mason Roberts

Perhaps we could change spec work for the better?

[D856C]

There is only one reason for spec work - to go beyond what clients hire you for. More like "speculative fiction." You can do any kind of work you want for nothing; just don't do it for any real company.

One example is Worth1000

Really, contests do exactly what they're designed to do. Contest sponsors don't really know what they want -- except they do not want to interact with a designer to figure it out.

Most contests rob the designer of advocating for and iterating a design based on client feedback. An echo chamber of other designers does nothing to change that. Rather, that's how you get the very worst user annoying Flash animation. I believe the technical term is "circle jerk." (I find both meanings of the word jerk work well here).

....and just that sort of self-absorbed self-gratification sans any notion of a client objective is probably the atmosphere which allows contests to flourish without a pang of regret, client side.

Contest sponsors get 20-50 designs, figure out what they want at contest end isn't what's in the design brief they submitted to kick off the contest, then pick a design. All the while driving down costs. The system, like the H1B visa sham, works to the employer's benefit quite well -- there's no need to change.

Designers flock to give their time and effort away, underscoring there is no need to change whatsoever. Frankly, I'm surprised they're not charging the designers ....most are dim enough to pay people to take their designs.

Contests helps bottom feeders find the clueless ...what's not to like?


P.S. You need a third option for your poll: Misinformed. The idea is based on a number of flawed assumptions. Logosauce is designed just about right. They only changes made will be if they figure out a way, as per my suggestion, to skew even more toward the price-based client.

[Mason Roberts]

Sure... But I treat speculation work as a training ground, and to keep my mind active...

I think with the Concept, WIP and Final stages made compulsory, that it will ensure at least a higher % of work submitted is of high quality. I don't see how those assumptions are flawed when it works for another society just as well...

In recent times however I have grown away from these speculative contests, because of the problems involved... But, if everyone were to put in the time and effort needed into their designs then it could become a valuable tool for designers looking to build up their skill sets...

Its a touchy subject and one that I'm sure many will have different views on!

[D856C]

a training ground

I differ on this point. Unless you mean training in the very most superficial aspects of a graphic program, or perhaps solely how to win design contests.

Design isn't just about using any graphics program. It's about interacting with clients, advocating for and persuading clients your approach is sound.

Exactly what's missing from the vast majority of these sites. You're fooling yourself and robbing yourself of the very training most designers are most desperately in need of. A skill "set" implies more than the one of using [fill in the blank] app.

If you're talking "where's this function" in the dropdowns, then there are better training methods.

Keeping your mind active is pretty generic. How about keeping your mind active by designing an alternative format design contest than the default? Then figuring out a way to convince it's in the client's best interest to submit to this radically different kind of site -- even if they pay a little more.

Oh, but I've neglected the single-minded pursuit of this week's PhotoShop/Illustrator fad. But then, if you're trying to keep your mind active, you'd want to think past the app and fevered focus on monkey-see monkey-do.

Want to keep the mind active? Read Logo Misapplication.

[james]

But, if everyone were to put in the time and effort needed into their designs then it could become a valuable tool for designers looking to build up their skill sets...

Unpaid time and effort for every single person (except the 'lucky' winner). That's the main issue with these spec sites, end of.

[eziemac]

Design isn't just about using any graphics program. It's about interacting with clients, advocating for and persuading clients your approach is sound. .

What about beginners who can't get work with clients?

For where i am just now i have only spec work to thank. If it wasn't for logosauce i wouldn't have had any practise and couldn't find motivation to make fake projects up therefore i wouldn't have progressed and to be honest i didnt have to make fake projects up when there were real ones that paid when won.

Right now, i couldn't touch logosauce (unless im submitting unused work that i have done) and i have no reason to as i am getting work but for beginners who cannot get work as they have a small and weak portfolio i think it is good.

[Mason Roberts]

I differ on this point. Unless you mean training in the very most superficial aspects of a graphic program, or perhaps solely how to win design contests.

Design isn't just about using any graphics program. It's about interacting with clients, advocating for and persuading clients your approach is sound.

Exactly what's missing from the vast majority of these sites. You're fooling yourself and robbing yourself of the very training most designers are most desperately in need of. A skill "set" implies more than the one of using [fill in the blank] app.

If you're talking "where's this function" in the dropdowns, then there are better training methods.

Keeping your mind active is pretty generic. How about keeping your mind active by designing an alternative format design contest than the default? Then figuring out a way to convince it's in the client's best interest to submit to this radically different kind of site -- even if they pay a little more.

Oh, but I've neglected the single-minded pursuit of this week's PhotoShop/Illustrator fad. But then, if you're trying to keep your mind active, you'd want to think past the app and fevered focus on monkey-see monkey-do.

Want to keep the mind active? Read Logo Misapplication.

You make good points mate, and I actually agree with most of what you say... I think for the most part I'm playing devils advocate here to try and debate the good, if any, that can come out of sites such as these.

Sure I have participated in competitions, but as Ezie is saying I don't think I can stand to enter another. But, then again I am thankful for my time in the "Spec Contest" world because it has made me learn from my mistakes and how I approach design. I suppose its one of those positive negatives?

In looking at my client work and my Spec work the difference in quality was absurd. Even I, who spent time in doing research/sketching etc for the competitions still found that my work was lacking. Perhaps this is the lack of "one on one" communication with the client... or perhaps it was the ingrained knowledge that a quick buck (dollar) could be made, without any effort...

Overall, "Spec" work is bad for the design community, but lets face it... Its going to be around for a long time and I think at least something has to be done to make sure quality works are submitted, rather than rushed, incoherent and lifeless designs.

Your thoughts?

[D856C]

My thoughts are you've made up your mind.

[Mason Roberts]

My thoughts are you've made up your mind.

Yep, but that statement was directed to everyone as well... I should reiterate...

What are everyone's thoughts?

[Scriptage]

What are everyone's thoughts?

I'm hungry and in need of beer.