No Tables

[Miss Leona]

How is the best way to explain to a non web savvy person why using t ables is bad?

SEO isn't a good case, in the age of broadband the loading time become less important, the fact that it's easy to update won't help the end user?

What do you say/do to put the idea across?

[Arkady]

I'm no authority on this subject, but I would like to know why you feel the need to explain to anyone. It seems to me, that would be rather like my having to explain, my choice of film to someone.

[kip]

Originally Posted by Arkady

I would like to know why you feel the need to explain to anyone.

Great way to make sales, people who are unaware of web standards just carry on not caring but if you can prove to them a redesign would be good it's an extra sale.

I would say go for the accesability issues, the fact that sticking to standards means your site will work in all browsers hopefully for a long time to come.

[flick]

Originally Posted by kip

Great way to make sales, people who are unaware of web standards just carry on not caring but if you can prove to them a redesign would be good it's an extra sale.

I would say go for the accesability issues, the fact that sticking to standards means your site will work in all browsers hopefully for a long time to come.

i was struggling to think of something that would work but yes, that's exactly it! and it's easy for them to understand. w00t!

[rossable]

since it's a non web savvy person it really doesn't matter what you tell them so long as they believe you.

if they are web savvy then you have to debate tables vs table-free and the whole issue that CSS and web standards really isn't all that standard yet. (which is a discussion for another time and place.)

the fact of the matter is that going with a table free layout can allow you more flexibility and longevity for your site since you can change the layout more easily should you wish to without affecting the content.

[Arkady]

Originally Posted by kip

I would say go for the accesability issues, the fact that sticking to standards means your site will work in all browsers hopefully for a long time to come.

Are you saying that a tables based layout doesn't comply with current W3C standards or won't work in all browsers and if so which ones?

[rossable]

Originally Posted by Arkady

Are you saying that a tables based layout doesn't comply with current W3C standards or won't work in all browsers and if so which ones?

it's not that it doesn't comply... it's just the old way of doing things and goes against the principles of keeping design apart from content. generally web standards requires you to use <tags> for what they were meant for originally and tables are meant for displaying tabular data, not layout.

[Arkady]

But as I understand it, tables were the only layout tool available to designers in the first instance. So surely they must be considered only as a design alternative, so long as they are capable of producing the right result (and I've seen plenty that do.) I'm not saying that there is no good rationale for designers to move towards using CSS, but what I am saying is that there's no really good case for a designer to have to explain why he/she used tables instead. And I really don't much care for the evangelistic zeal with which some designers jump on others, just because they decided to use tables to construct their layouts instead of CSS.

'The tools and materials you use to build a boat are immaterial so long as it floats.'

[kip]

I guess it's a point of how long it will float. Standards are there for a reason to keep everybody moving forward. The same as BSI standards change as materials, technologies etc. change the standards set have to, why can't the web be the same?

The thing we have to remember is it's still very new so starting to set standards at an early stage can stop people going off on tangents further down the line.

[Arkady]

Originally Posted by kip

I guess it's a point of how long it will float. Standards are there for a reason...

You keep quoting standards. But tables are not non standard. They are part of, and encompassed by the W3C standards collective.